When you come into the
house mind the dog,
don't fall over the kids, and don't let the cats
into the kitchen. I'll be practising the flute in
the spare room.
Kathy Stobart, saxophonist
My birthplace was South Shields, Co. Durham; so Im a Tynesider.
My late husband Bert Courtley was also from the North, from Manchester.
But we met in London, our children were all born here, and my sons consider
themselves Londoners. I dont think they have any accent; I know
Im always shocked when I hear my recorded voice. People up North
tell me I talk quite South Country now, when, in actual fact, when I hear
it I realise I still speak rather broad.
The grounding in music I had covered classical, light and dance music,
but there was no jazz at all. My brothers used to listen to the current
big name bands of the time people like Harry Roy and Ambrose. I certainly
didnt hear anything about jazz in those days.
All level
The jazz interest really started at a point where I joined a palais
band in Newcastle. called Peter Fielding. I then met other musicians who
were jazz fans, and collected the records. Before that I didnt really
think about it very much. I was playing tenor, but, funnily enough, I
gave no thought to becoming a jazz player. And the idea of making some
kind of a success nation-wide never really entered my head. The plan originally
was just to become a good player locally.
Id been playing alto saxophone since I was about twelve; my first
job was with a ladies' band, touring, but I had to get a tenor for that.
After working with them a year, I came back home, and thats when
I got this job in the all-male band. I never did join a girls' band after
that. I did several guest appearances with them a couple with Ivy Benson,
and a couple of deps for females who were ill. Other than that, I never
worked for a woman; I was in male bands all the time.
As for prejudice I didnt encounter any up in Newcastle, because
I think we were all fairly level. There were one or two very talented
people in the band, but generally speaking, it wasnt competitive
enough for there to be any anti-women feelings, or anything like that.
I think they were all fairly fond of me, and we all got along fine. We
rehearsed, did the job and that was it.
When I came down to London, it was almost entirely due to two people
Keith Bird and Derek Neville that I swung round completely on to jazz
playing. If its possible, they taught me to play jazz. I
suppose it would be more true to say that they were the ones who found
a way of bringing the jazz out of me. Mainly Keith Bird, actually. He
gave me my first job in London; he was leaving the job, and he wrote and
told me: Its here if you want it. That was for a quartet
he was the saxophone player out front, and I took over from him. So I
was thrown in at the deep end, as you might say, and within a few weeks
I was playing jazz.
Well, of course, by that time I had amassed a certain collection of jazz
records recommended by various people. But, you see, its difficult
to know how to play it. Sometimes you can have a great jazz feeling inside,
but actually you need a good push to do it, you know. The only true way
of doing it is for somebody to give you that push off your seat, and say:
Get up and blow. And you have to do whatever comes into your
head as long as you know the tune and you have a fairly good ear. Which
was always a strong point in my case -I had a fairly well developed
ear. Then you automatically pick things from what you hear. Of course,
that combined with a certain rhythmic sense gives the end-product of some
kind of jazz chorus. And if youre good at it, and if you have a
natural flair, then obviously you develop very quickly, to organise these
thoughts.
Also, Keith Bird used to play things on the piano and ask me to play
something to it. Hed play chords and say: What do you hear
to that? Play something to that or What kind of notes do you
hear there? And Id play something; then: Right. Now
try this one.
You see, all the time finding out exactly what it was that I did hear.
Then he gradually introduced me to the simpler tunes, like I Got
Rhythm, Lady Be Good, Honeysuckle Rose,
which are the basis of half the jazz tunes that ever were. I played what
I heard; hed alter the chords then, and Id hear something
out of that. And he gradually got it together so that he could play a
given tune on the piano, and I would start to implant another melody on
the chord sequence.
Finally, when he gave me this job of his, there was only the one frontline;
so you had to get up and play. Within about a month I was working with
Dennis Rose at the Jamboree Club, and Jim Skidmore, Reggie Dare, Kenny
Graham all the people who were about at that time.
Oh, that was a tremendous era. The war was still on, and we had yet to
be really introduced to bebop. I mean, I was absolutely hooked on Coleman
Hawkins, Ben Webster, Benny Carter, Bunny Berigan, Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman,
the Casa Loma all the saxophone players and all the popular big bands
of the day. When bebop did come .and we got switched on to it, then, of
course, the Club Eleven started. And Dennis Rose, the one I had worked
for he was almost a father of Club Eleven. Because he already had the
harmonic knowledge before it arrived here; he was so talented, it was
unbelievable. Ronnie Scott and all of them would be only too ready to
give him credit; they learned an awful lot from Dennis.
Incredible
At the time I worked with Dennis, he was a trumpet/bandleader. One of
the most unhappy things for him, I think, was the fact that he could never
seem to get out on trumpet what he wanted to play. For what reason, I
dont know. Yet he would sit down in the interval, or at the end
of the evening, and play piano and what came out then was absolutely incredible.
He was playing bebop then before I had even heard of it. He was amazing;
I learned so much from him. I still admire him very much. He plays piano
occasionally at places, but I dont often get to see him now.
Yes, eventually I was running my own group. There were really two up-and-coming
young small jazz bands in the late forties that was Johnny Dankworth
and myself. We ran concurrently. I just didnt have the money to
carry on; we were really losing quite a bit.
Oh, the book was pretty advanced. I started out with a lot of Lennie
Tristano kind of things. Then I moved into a more swingy type of thing;
we had trumpet and five saxophones then. Id met Bert, and he was
on trumpet. We had some very good players. At various times, Dill Jones
and Tommy Watt were on piano. Derek Humble was our lead alto player; Pete
King the one who now runs Ronnie Scott's was on tenor with the band, too.
It was a real good band; we had a lot of fun. But you need money for arrangements,
coach bills and everything else, and I couldnt afford it; so I just
had to pack up after a year.
Recognisable
I didnt have the right direction, in the first place. It was an
unwise choice to go out playing Lennie Tristano things, because, unfortunately,
I was sent out into the ballrooms with this kind of music. That was a
mistake, of course you needed something more straight down the middle.
But by the time I charmed. I think it was a bit too late to recover. You
had to do an audition for broadcasting then, and although I passed first
time, nobody ever bothered to give me any broadcasts, which I needed.
I went back to the Vic Lewis band, where Id been previously. So
did Bert, Derek Humble and Lennie Harrison, the bass player. The others
went to various other bands. About a year or so later, I married Bert,
and a year after that we had the first boy. Since then, of course while
the children were still young, theres no doubt about it, my musical
activities were limited. I could only really take jobs from which I could
get back overnight. In fact, the longest stint I ever did was the three
months when I first went with Humphrey Lyttleton, and that was to deputise
for me old pal Jim Skidmore, who was very ill for a while.
Though I might have been thought of as a modernist, I didnt really
belong to the bebop movement. My playing has always been, as I say, down
the middle somewhere; it fitted in very well with the Lyttleton band.
Anyway, Humphreys very broadminded: he likes to surround himself
with people of varying styles. Hes always looked forwards, rather
than backwards. I mean, hes had some tremendously modern people
sometimes a very unlikely crew altogether, you know. He likes it that
way, although hes basically Humphrey, and very recognisably so thank
goodness; people want to hear him as he is. But he would admit, too, that
because of his exposure to all these ahead-looking people, hes become
better and better over the years himself. He still has a glorious feeling
for jazz, but he is a better player now.
People may say: Oh, its not the same they forget that
musicians, if they keep on playing long enough, in spite of everything
they become better. And its no good beginning to admire them when
they werent as good as they are now. Im not saying that Humphrey
went into study or anything; he just has got progressively better. Youre
bound to, if you play millions of notes all the time; youre able
to do them faster, co-ordinate quicker and so on. There are very few people
I know who dont steadily improve and that includes the out-and-out
traditionalists. Well, the Alex Welsh band, with whom I had the great
pleasure of sharing my very enjoyable Ronnie Scotts engagement,
is a perfect example of that. He has some really excellent players there.
My big band experience goes way back. I did a lot of concerts with Ted
Heath in the old days, and some with Geraldo. I used to do the Sid Gross
concerts, before Sid went to the States. And there was all my work for
Vic Lewis. I did one or two other jobs for various people around, but
generally speaking, it was mostly those Ive already mentioned. Oh,
of course, my first husband, Art Thompson had a band; in the war days,
he had a very good Swing band at the Embassy Club. He went back to California;
hes been very successful there, they tell me. But apart from that,
it was all really guesting, playing jazz clubs and jazz broadcasts all
the time, really.
Yes, Bert was a member of Woody Hermans Anglo-American band. That
was a lovely band; Nat Adderley, Bill Harris and Charlie Byrd were in
it, too. As a matter of fact, I was asked to do the job. I was working
at the Hundred Club, Oxford Street with Kenny Baker and Woody came down
to see me I suppose with the idea of looking me over and listening a bit,
to see if hed made the right choice. Anyway, he told me he was pleased
with the idea, and it was going to be great. But when it really came down
to the crunch you see, I had already done three months with Humphrey,
and my children were all very small. I had three boys under five at the
time or just five, the eldest one.
So, I mean, it meant more and more strain on my mum, and I really couldnt
go off for about four weeks heavy touring leaving her with all of
them. It was really the dilemma of being a mother as well as a jazz musician
and I knew what was the right thing to do. Don Rendell went in, finally,
didnt he? I was a bit disappointed, in a way, but never mind; I
didnt worry about it at all.
Certainly, I would have liked to play with Woody. Hes always had
great bands, and hes a marvellous, admirable person. He consistently
gets the best out of musicians; hes a great man. they tell me, in
rehearsal and everything. He really knows what he wants, and hes
gained the respect of everybody. That would have been very nice.
Actually, my late husband, trumpeter Bert Courtley, and I didnt
work together all that much, strangely enough. He used to play a lot with
Don Rendell, Ronnie Ross, Harry South, Phil Seamen, Ed Harveythey
had various groups. You see, I still had the family at home. I used to
go down and play quite a lot at the Flamingo, guesting with people. For
quite some time, I was part of the Tony Kinsey group; Les Condon and I
made up the front-line. Which was lovely very enjoyable. At that time,
that was the only regular group I belonged to.
After all, Bert was the main bread-winner; he was always out doing things.
He went with Cyril Stapleton, Ken Mackintosh and so on all the time getting
better jobs, as far as bread-and-butter work. Still he was filling in
with his jazz thing, while I went ahead and did my limited amount.
Retiring
The thing was, during the first years of our marriage, within thirteen
months Id had one child, and within another two-and-a-half years
Id had another, with the third one following a year and nine months
after that. So it was a case of retiring from the profession three times.
Although thats a bit of a joke, really, because I never put the
saxophone away with the idea of letting it stay in the case for long.
It was there, and I always knew Id play it again. When Bert unhappily
died, a lot of people helped me by putting work on to me making me get
out to work, you know. Tonv Coe. whos a very great friend of mine,
and Humphrey Lyttelton again they rang me all the time. I cant say
I didnt want to go; it was just that, in the early days, I didnt
really know what I wanted to do. But I got more and more help from people,
and more and more work.
Then I started going to the Guildhall for flute and clarinet lessons.
And I started giving saxophone classes mvself at a big night school. Now
its four years since Bert died and I think I work harder than Ive
ever done, music-wise, since before I was married.. I have to work, anyway,
to keep the home together. The boys are still there only theyre
very big now, of course. My eldest sons twenty-one; the other two
are eighteen-and-a-half and seventeen. And weve got a marvellous
relationship all together. We all pursue our own particular hobbies, jobs,
or whatever it is, and nobody takes too many liberties. My middle son
plays the guitar, the younger one the piano.
They both seem to be doing nicely at it. I wouldnt be so big-headed
as to say theyre tremendously talented, but Im very pleased
to find that they really know whats good and I dont think
theyre going to settle for anything less than that. Their musical
tastes are broad, but now that theyre maturing, and theyve
gone through all the basic likes and dislikes, Im glad to find that
whats coming out at the end is rather nice. Its just as I
would have it. They both have a great leaning towards jazz, and the more
musical pop music not so much the singers. Of course, they have a tremendous
record selection, as most young people do these days, but there are an
awful lot of very adventurous things there. Theyre not hung up by
four-four all the time; theres a lot of freedom. So Im very
pleased with the way its going. I dont know whether theyll
turn professional, but I hope they get pleasure out of it.
Adventurous
Some of the recent songs are highly adaptable for jazz. Funnily enough,
I find that through listening to all the modern music, you can approach
some of the older things in a much more flexible way. They say theres
nothing new, really, and its the same thing permutated in a slightly
different form, but I do know that hearing the modern groups has done
me good, because it makes me want to play with more adventurous rhythms,
and everything. Although I must keep it in mind all the time that there
are certain fields that I know I cannot enter. Its no good me ever
joining in any kind of free form, because I dont think I could have
my heart in it, somehow. By now, I know me, and what I do best.
Admittedly, the setting is changing. I like nicer rhythms, with
noises and knockings going on, and I do feel that there are much greater
liberties to be taken with things. But I will always remain a fairly uncomplicated
jazz player. Also I have a very melodic mind tuneful, you could say. To
coin a modern phrase that I dont usually use: I know where Im
at. I know my position but I dont want any of the old-time rhythm
sections; I want the now thing. And even as I get the instrument out to
play, I think a lot differently about what Im going to play, compared
to what I did six years ago.
A lot of things have contributed to this. Going to the Guildhall; even
teaching other players has helped. And I run a student band as well, which
is becoming tremendously successful. The boys are very good, very receptive,
all try very hard. This is the City Literary Institutes young rehearsal
band. Alan Cohen runs a big, more professional one on a Saturday, but
I pressed to have somewhere for the younger ones to go. Not young in age,
that is, but young in experience. Because students become better players,
but theres still this business of the inability to interpret written
dance music or jazz music in a modern fashion.
Sometimes theres nowhere for them to go; the gap between
becoming fairly proficient on ones instrument, and how to put it
into practical use in a band can be quite big. Also, I believe its
good that I am a practising musician. I dont spend all the week
teaching, admirable though that might be. Im not yet built for that
- Im built to be out there doing it myself. But the fact remains,
I love going down there just a couple of times a week. One night I spend
taking two classes of saxophones; Monday - thats my band night.
We started from fairly simple arrangements- Jimmy Lallys dance band
copies. As weve gone along, Ive brought in better ones, by
people like Neal Hefti. And all the time carefully, but very positively
drumming in the absolutely essential lessons to do with section work.
Which takes time, because its difficult; theyve got to learn
to read all kinds of accidentals, to try and remember whether theyre
louder than the others, to watch for the change of key, to observe very
many things.
But its really got through. Particularly some of the saxophone
players, who are now in their third year with me. After being two years
in the saxophone classes, theyve gone into the big band now. Some
of them had only just bought the saxophone when they first came to me.
Now theyve got beautiful, full sounds, they know when theyre
in tune, theyre listening, and their observation of all the marks
on the scores is excellent. Like everything else, sometimes we have a
duff night, when it doesnt go right. But its amazing - sometimes
I go in and well just do three or four arrangements, just straight
through, without picking too many holes - we generally run them through,
and then start taking them to pieces- and it suddenly dawns on me what
a tremendous, healthy improvement there is. It really is very gratifying.
Recently we got some more brass, and now were up to full complement.
I dont limit it to one of any specific instrument; I have to double
them up, otherwise it means youre turning people away, and I dont
like to do that. I mean, in the brass, we have a couple of fellows who
split lead; then well have two third trumpet players, and two second
- we sometimes end up with about six trumpets and three trombones. The
trumpetsll be doubling, you see. And therell be two lead altos,
two second altos, two first tenors, two second tenors and a baritone -
maybe even an alto doubling baritone with him. So with piano, bass and
drums added, we have at least seventeen there on a Monday.
Singing
Some of the boys bring a little recording machine along. Well, thats
good - I dont have to say anything; they can hear it, if its
wrong. In any case, I often end up at the end of an evening with my voice
a bit cracked, where Ive been singing the phrases to them! Or Ill
get the saxophone out, and play it at them again and again. Thats
why it was a bit of a problem, in the beginning stages of this band, to
get a rhythm section, because it was so boring for them to have to wait
and wait while the band went over and over certain things that I just
was not happy with. If its not right, its no good letting
them carry on. I hear about rehearsal bands where people actually go in,
and they start, and plough through music, and nobody tells them theyre
playing wrongly. In fact, Ive heard of at least two rehearsal bands
being run by people for money, where the leaders had been students of
mine, and had dropped out, because, quite frankly, they just werent
good enough.
Now, that makes me very angry. And justifiably so, because Im professional,
and proud of it. I mean, I wouldnt dare take that kind of a liberty.
There are some very fine musicians in this business who have good student
bands, and theyve got a lot of knowledge to give away. But its
no good when you get these people who actually are running bands, and
taking money- and theyre learners themselves.
The only thing I can hope is that as soon as possible the young people
will get away from them, and go to a band where theres a practising
player out front. You need that - then you know that hes imparting
things to you that hes putting into practice every day of his life.
Even if you didnt like his style, you would know that somebodys
employing him; so he must have something to share with you.
Yes, weve had some girl players. Theres a girl alto player,
whos a classical clarinet player turned alto, and there was a classical
pianist who wanted to swing to jazz, but shes moved away now. Just
two or three Ive had; there arent many about, you know. Its
not really a very feminine thing. I wouldnt say Ive been handicapped
myself by being a woman. I mean, Im sure theres prejudice
there - theres bound to be. But Ive never had to suffer in
any shape or form; Ive always found everybody marvellous to me.
Oh, I would advise any girl to try and make it - but I would just hope
that shed get the chances that I did. Because opportunity was on
my side, really. It was wartime, and everybody was so hard up for players,
they had to give me a job! Coupled with the fact that this was what I
wanted to do.
I hope that perhaps a few of them will have a go at it, in the future.
The colleges are full of female classical players; so I dont see
why we shouldnt have a few more of the other kind. That is, provided
people will start doing a bit more for live jazz, in the way of various
radio stations. They tell me in New York theres at least three hours
live television jazz every day, and you can switch on radio programmes
of live jazz any time of the day. And when I visited Germany with Humphrey,
in all the stores you can hear jazz, and on the radio theyre playing
jazz all round the clock.
So its no good anybody turning round and telling me its not
a good listenable thing for the public. Its very listenable. Its
also lovely to watch. I do think its becoming more fashionable now
to go and watch it. But there are a lot of people who would be very pleasantly
surprised if they just got away from that box, and went down and watched
somebody playing jazz. I think theyd like it.
Interviewed by Les Tomkins in 1974
Copyright © 1974 Les Tomkins. All Rights Reserved
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